Lord HDL said:
I called it, didn't I?
Obviously if I disagree I'll ask why you think a matchup is what it is. Cryptically saying "If you were good you'd know" isn't reasoning. A forum is for discussing opinions, not saying "This is what I think, no arguments!"
Lord HDL said:
Skler, you are a good Link player from what I saw at Pound 4. But, with respect, in case you forgot, you only won around 1-2 matches against me out of many, and that was not simply due to Link ditto knowledge.
You beat me two times and I beat you once, we played Link ditto friendlies. Don't drop the "with respect" shenanigans on me though, you just brought up friendlies as a case for you being better than me. Friendly dittos, more importantly.
Lord HDL said:
I won't mention names out of respect (not trying to use them as stepping stones), but I've consistently beaten the best top/high tier character players. Enough insofar as to be considered a viable threat to them in tournaments. Sure I've lost too, they are excellent players who win often and using Link makes it even harder. But in any case, I've proven at least one thing: I can and have beaten most of the major top players with Link.
Wait, you consistently beat the best top/high tier players and then didn't make it out of 3rd round pools? With all due respect, if you're consistently beating the best then why didn't you beat them in tournament? With respect, wasn't your round 3 pool (I watched because I wanted to see a Link get into brackets) a Doc, Peach, Pikachu/Falco and Sheik (there should be one more in there, I honestly don't remember if there was or not)? With all due respect those are winnable matchups. I'm not trying to say I'd of made it out either, but (and this is with all the respect in the cosmos) you can't make such a lofty claim when evidence says otherwise. Please do drop some names, respectfully of course. Who are these top level players that you consistently beat in tournament? Friendlies are good fun, but most people won't use their best tactics because it's generally more fun to approach and try new things.
In order to make name dropping kosher, I'll list some people I've beaten in tournament off the top of my head (some of these players have also beaten me in tournament, actually a lot of them have). These players are amazing, they're generally better than me (especially now) and I hate going up against them in tournament because I know they're good. If any of you guys happened to name search your way here, please read the entire post and see it in context. You can drop my name if you want since most of you have beaten me anyways (my name isn't worth much though!)
Korean DJ (in low tier tournaments, various characters)
Keitaro (no idea if he still plays)
Tec0 (probably no way I'd beat him now)
Reno (I don't think a single game was ever more than a stock difference, I hate playing him).
G$ (he's beaten me more recently)
Hax (he's beaten me more recently, they're on youTube!)
Mango (link ditto in pools, lol. He curbed me with Falco/Sheik at pound 3)
Azen (link ditto in pools)
Cort (again, he usually beats me and I think he quit)
Darc (I think he's beaten me close to 9 times though whereas I've only won once)
Plank (he's beaten me more recently, Pound 4)
Chu Dat (granted he played Pika for two rounds after beating me with ICs once and it was pools)
Mathos
Mogwai (he's beaten me in tournament since I won my match against him)
Husband
Sastopher (old school)
eighteenspikes (I know the doc matchup way too well)
Sliq
DJNintendo (different characters on different occasions, he's also beaten me before).
So Mr. HDL, drop some names as I have shamelessly done. Who are these top players you beat in tournament? More importantly, which ones do you beat consistently? Friendlies don't count or else I'd have a whole lot of names under my belt that I don't deserve.
For the record, I didn't make it into round 3 pools at Pound 4. My second pool featured a circle camping Fox, two Sheiks and two Falcons. The Falcons were people who I had played before with Link and thus knew the matchup (ironically they are both Falcons whom I had never lost to before in friendlies, but I lost when it counted and that's all that matters) the Sheik was the one in your round 3 pool, the one you lost to. I know these are johns, but hey, I had a second pool that might as well have been custom made for beating me. In addition to that, Pound 4 was home of the worst night of my life (it was entirely my fault though).
Lord HDL said:
Now, don't misconstrue me. I don't mean to say that you don't have knowledge on Link or his matchups. What I'm saying is that, if there's any part of you that feels you know everything or almost everything there is to know, therein lies the main problem.
It's not misconstruing you, you said you're better than me (though you did so respectfully) and thus correct. You clearly are, you performed slightly better at Pound 4 AND beat me in a friendly ditto. In teams I think we went dead even in spite of the state of mind I was in that day. Too bad.
I don't know everything, but I do know a lot about the Fox matchup because I get stuck with it all the time against really good Fox players. No offense, but Pound 4 was the first time you actually came to the US for a tournament, wasn't it? I've been exposed to this level of Fox forever. If you get circle camped by a good Fox you'll lose. It's just what happens. I was going to talk about matchups, you decided to have none of that.
Lord HDL said:
I was like that before, once. I felt I had completely exhausted Link, like there was nothing left to learn because I had fully mastered him. And so I moved on to my 2nd-in-command, which became my main tournament character. It wasn't until I wised up and realized that there's so much more to explore that I came back to Link. Since then I have learned many things about him, to this day I am still amazed at how much he has to offer.
I don't think I've completely exhausted Link. I do think he'll never beat top Foxes that know the matchup, but I certainly don't think he's worthless or all figured out. He's a viable character against Peach and, more importantly, Jigglypuff. He can deal with most of the high tiers at a disadvantage and even stands a chance against Marth and Falco. Is he going to win a tournament on his own? Balls no. Will that stop me from trying? Balls no, I have more fun with him.
Lord HDL said:
Even after Pound 4, I still learned new things. Most of them are little, not anything spectacular alone, but everything counts when accumulated. Bits of knowledge here and there. The only reason I even got to this point is because I
challenged what I already thought to be true and correct, making revisions and adjustments wherever necessary. That's why I never believe my opinions to be firmly rooted, because if they are then there is no room for improvement. Instead, I have taken a more dynamic approach.
The thing is Link will never actually get faster. No matter how hard you try Link won't suddenly get Captain Falcon's dash speed and his boomerang will always take the same amount of frames to toss. Some matchups (Fox) are dependent on static things. Fox is faster than you and has a projectile that doesn't force him to slow down. He can use it while retreating. Link can't catch him when he retreats. Nothing will make that change.
There's always room for improvement, that's going to be true forever. Opinions don't have to be fluid because of that. If a Link learns to powershield Fox double lasers then circle camping is no longer a problem. Until then Fox is Link's hardest matchup by virtue of him having no control over it. Fox decides if you get a chance to hit him. He doesn't need to ever give you a chance.
Lord HDL said:
I am not out to convince anyone of the heights I've reached with Link. I train for my personal benefit, not for any kind of recognition. But I wanted to post this because I was a little offended by Skler's insinuation that I do not have sound reasons for my thoughts on the matchups. Instead he just posted his opinions as if they were absolute truth. If you are still having such insane trouble with Fox (10-90?), it's because you have not mastered the matchup and you have not developed the qualities of a top player in general. The first step to improving is to discard the mistaken assertion that there is nothing left to learn.
Of course I'm going to post like my opinions are the truth. If I don't believe them I've got some weak opinions, don't I? If I said "well, I think Fox is pretty hard I guess" it doesn't come off with the same authority as "Fox is a total ***** and I hate him. I secretly get happy whenever I see a dead Fox by the side of the road" (protip: I don't actually like seeing dead Foxes in anything but Smash Brothers).
I never claimed you had no reasons, just that you hadn't given any (there's obviously reasoning behind everyone's opinion). You still haven't given sound reasoning though. You're just like a certain unnamed person in the MBR who just says things, gives no reasoning and then explains "I'm great so I'm right." People like that are shunned because they can't form a coherent argument. I'm also amazed you took my post personally. When somebody disagrees with me I don't go at their throat. If somebody calls me out then I'm obligated to. Feel special to be one of the only people to receive one of these posts from me. You certainly deserve it!
Lord HDL said:
huMps I'll answer your question about Marth. Projectiles do not keep him out. They can only serve as an impediment, but sooner or later he will get in the danger zone. He only needs to move forward and block, staying on the ground and not jumping. Once there, he has solid offensive options for staying out of your CC range, grabbing you, hitting you with safe attacks past your jab range, and avoiding your grab. He's not totally safe, else Link couldn't win at all. But the top Marth players will not fall for most of the bologna projectile usage that most Link players tend to think will keep him away. They will not be so easily interrupted by Link's defending sword strikes. His pressure is difficult to deal with because almost everything he can do is safely out of your range, and most of Link's reliable counter measures are risky.
You explained your thoughts on a matchup. That's all you needed to do in the first place. I'd say that a grounded Marth can't defend against bombs reliably at all (if he swings at it he's grab bait, if he doesn't he's forced to give ground or get hit) and that those aren't nearly as large of an issue as Fox's insane advantages, but that would have been pretty much all I had to say. Instead you had that opening.
Lord HDL said:
If you know the matchup, you can take advantage and interrupt them at key moments in their offense.
Ah, this is your problem. You still think good Foxes approach for some reason instead of plinking away with the laser. Maybe that's a bit harsh, some good Fox players will approach because they don't understand the MU very well. Double laser does 4-2% each short hop against Link. You have to approach, they can sit there and pew pew pew.
